Curse

Vaga · Oct 08, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

LoD is only as overpowered as most of the other stuff in the meta.

Akaraxle · Oct 08, 2007, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

LoD is problematic. The amount of damage it can heal up makes it borderline overpowered, but if you nerf it everyone is gonna crumble in less than 1-2 minutes as there really isn't any viable alternative to dealing with party wide pressure.

Unless someone feels like designing a new heal party bot.

I was discussing this with my guildies just yesterday, and I kinda wanted to bring EP+HP back on my flagger, so I started designing a bar. But if you want to make one that fits the metabalanced, you want to be able to:

snare stuff;
heal npc's;
remove conditions;
[optional] remove hexes;
handle rangers;
survive assassins;
possibly deal some damage.

The standard SoR guy is already speccing in 3 attributes. If you add HP, you want to fuel it with EP (thus giving up SoR) to spec a decent amount of healing prayers (ideally ~9). But if you want to survive sins, or splits with hex removal in general, and remove conditions you need prots as well.
The problem arises when you realize your attribute points aren't infinite and it's hard to fit it all in the standard 8 slots. Old healbots worked because there weren't so many offensive options (and Mending Touch) to take into consideration before Nightfall came out. Would you still survive nowadays with only Breeze in your bar?

Cass · Oct 08, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Insightful post!

I find it funny to see how everyone seems to agree with the original post, yet at the same time the PvP section is filled to the brim with screams to nerf the passive "blockway" defenses.

This post points out exactly why blockway is needed: You can't push your red bars up as fast as they go down, if things are actually hitting you unimpeded. I am amazed that nobody seems to pick up on this point.

Misses caused by hexes serve a similar purpose actually. Miraculously, hexes were nerfed after incessant complaints about their power. It would perhaps have been better to reduce their degen effects (dmg on hit, on miss, -pips) but leave their defensive value more intact. Adding nrg costs and reducing duration etc has served to make them no longer viable for that purpose.

Vaga · Oct 08, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Insightful post!

I find it funny to see how everyone seems to agree with the original post, yet at the same time the PvP section is filled to the brim with screams to nerf the passive "blockway" defenses.

This post points out exactly why blockway is needed: You can't push your red bars up as fast as they go down, if things are actually hitting you unimpeded. I am amazed that nobody seems to pick up on this point.

Misses caused by hexes serve a similar purpose actually. Miraculously, hexes were nerfed after incessant complaints about their power. It would perhaps have been better to reduce their degen effects (dmg on hit, on miss, -pips) but leave their defensive value more intact. Adding nrg costs and reducing duration etc has served to make them no longer viable for that purpose.

Everyone who knew what they were talking about knew that high block % was needed the problem people have with it is it leads to boring gameplay. The game is actually pretty balanced atm in that everyone runs the same blockway build and for the most part the most skilled team at blockway wins.

A lot of people prefer how guild wars used to play where people "defense" was about just trying to slow the other teams offense's progress down enough for your offense to win.

Another problem people have is that defense is far easier to play than offense in that using shields up takes 0 skill yet it makes a ranger useless for 10 seconds.

Greedy Gus · Oct 08, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Insightful post!

I find it funny to see how everyone seems to agree with the original post, yet at the same time the PvP section is filled to the brim with screams to nerf the passive "blockway" defenses.

Essentially, most people here have a pretty good understanding of top-level balance that is visible in every-day play, and can argue until going blue in the face about aegis, shields up, or deadly arts. And that's not a bad thing, over time the arguments get clearer & more refined, because maybe a new good point gets thrown in every third or fourth time repeating the argument to some new opinionated pve player who interjects into game balance discussions. These people continually voicing these issues is important, because it hits some critical mass and really becomes popular opinion that can not be easily ignored (though their specific balance suggestions may be misguided, at least you know those issues need to be looked at).

There are really only a handful of people who bring more interesting insight to the conversation, aimed at deeper level more fundamental design issues. Eventually when these get worked out and understood better, they'll go on to shape the opinions mentioned in the above paragraph, and get parroted back.

At least at the moment, even most people who are posting about how passive defense needs to get hit at least know enough to add an addendum like "oh and offense needs to be turned down as well if these go through".

Byron · Oct 08, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

A well thought-out summary. As Jackie Chan might say, "No Booshit!"

This thread in itself is win, imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Well Gaile just posted in Riverside that skill updates will roll live next week, so we'll see.

Early predictions:

Defensive anthem nerfed to hell.
Agressive Refrain nerfed to hell.
Dwarven Battle Stance now lasts 5...30 minutes.
Other random AB skill tweaks (ie, deadly arts).

Kyp Jade · Oct 08, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Defensive anthem nerfed to hell.
Agressive Refrain nerfed to hell.
Dwarven Battle Stance now lasts 5...30 minutes.
Other random AB skill tweaks (ie, deadly arts).

Defensive Anthem: 15en, 2s, 30r
For xs Party members within earshot block 50% of attack skills.

Aggressive Refrain:
Echo: xs. You attack 25% faster but gain 25% less energy from leadership
Or
Echo: xs. You attack 25% faster but suffer -10 armor. (permanently)

Dwarven battle Stance:
Changed functionality to skill not stance, and you dont take double damage from frenzy. for 10s-rest of match, your attacks cannot be blocked, do +100dmg, and interupt on hit.

Shields Up
Changed functionality to: All party members within earshot suffer -9 health degeneration and cracked armor for using a lame skill.

** random sin buffs

Andrew Patrick · Oct 08, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

Agree. Just hoping that Andrew popups here and says "This will be shown to the devs." which I don't believe, but you can live in hope always.

I will totally show this to Izzy and the design team.

There is a balance update coming real soon, so I will make sure that Izzy sees this thread, as well as the other threads popping up about balance issues. Keep in mind, you can also leave feedback for specific skills on Izzy's talk page on the wiki: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...Skill_feedback

Thanks for yet another insightful post Ensign.

Ensign · Oct 08, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

I kinda wanted to bring EP+HP back on my flagger, so I started designing a bar.

Well the restraints you need to deal with in order to do that are actually quite a bit simpler. You need to be able to protect your Heal Party. If a Ranger can simply run past your team and DShot Heal Party, the character is worthless as a main party heal. If a single guy harassing you in the back can turn off Heal Party, you certainly can't run it as a single point of failure.

You always had to protect Heal Party with position before. Since you can't use blind to protect a cast if necessary anymore, a Heal Party spammer would have to stand in the middle of nowhere to cast, likely with NPC cover, which is completely unacceptable - trading an entire character to free up a Monk elite is awful. You need that guy to be doing other stuff as well, ala the Dervish/Necro with Orders and Dark Fury.

The stuff about making that character self-sufficient in the base really isn't that relevant. You would need to adjust tactics anyway because your main source of party healing would be in the base on a split using standard modern tactics, and that hasn't been viable since Nightfall. If a team split you'd have to be splitting back one of your regular Monks and having that guy take over at the stand, while running the flag with some other guy. It's extremely awkward and the skillset doesn't really support it.

zalxixmavon · Oct 08, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

This thread has been a great discussion and really got me thinking about some things. Before I had been mostly looking at buffing underused skills. So here is what i get from this discussion plus some of my own thoughts:

-Damage, especially physical has become too potent in some cases
-Defense is overdone to compensate
-Old School Mesmering has become less significant.

To rectify this mention has been made of increasing windows of opportunity and getting away from a LoD centered heal system. Certain skills need longer casts. IMO some other problems arose when inspiration got nerfed, when several opponents had Inspired Enchantment it made certain strategies much less effective. It would greatly affect current conjure builds for example. Another telling point of the current metagame is that agonizing chop is used almost solely to spike rather than to interrupt and pressure. I posted a list of balances in another thread and here are some highlights:

Agonizing Chop - 5 adr, +1...7 damage.

Might be actually used to interrupt

Critical Chop - 6 recharge, +1...7 damage.
Keen Chop - 4 adr, If this attack hits, for 1...4 seconds your attacks have a 3...18% additional chance of being a critical hit.

Another similar change towards pressure. May not be great but it demonstrates the concept of what Im looking for.

Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight - 5e, 3c, 25r
Release Enchantments - 3/4c, 10r, 8...31 heal per enchantment.
Light of Deliverance - 7 recharge.
Dwayna's Sorrow - For 20 seconds, target ally and all nearby allies are enchanted with Dwayna's Sorrow. When Dwayna's Sorrow ends all nearby allies are healed 0...2 health for each second Dwayna's Sorrow was in efffect. If an ally dies while under the effects of Dwayna's Sorrow, your party is healed instead

Song of Restoration - 12 recharge. (assuming para gets balanced in general)
Ballad of Restoration - 15 recharge.

Trying to make relevant multi-target heals.

Feedback - 5e, 2r, 20r, 3...7 energy loss.
Inspired/Revealed Enchantment - 2...14 energy.
Lyssa's Balance - 12 recharge.

And also improve enchantment removal. What I'd like to get to is a meta with a good threat of stripping but also one where you can beat it by covering carefully.

twicky_kid · Oct 09, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Right now monk bars rely on 1 thing. What party wide heal to use? That is only LoD and Heal Party (release enchantments is useless). LoD simply outclassed HP but reduced the monks ability to split.

Heal party adds the advantage of being able to split with self sufficient monks. Heal party can no longer keep up with the current pressure.

dies like fish · Oct 09, 2007, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Right now monk bars rely on 1 thing. What party wide heal to use? That is only LoD and Heal Party (release enchantments is useless). LoD simply outclassed HP but reduced the monks ability to split.

Heal party adds the advantage of being able to split with self sufficient monks. Heal party can no longer keep up with the current pressure.

How can it help you split if you can't keep up with pressure?

Riotgear · Oct 09, 2007, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Would it be a stretch to suggest that toning back the crazy offense options could largely fix the insanely strong defense by itself?

Running the current standard amount of defense used to mean losing so much offense that you could barely hope to kill anything outside of a spike. You didn't used to be able to have a mesmer dropping wards, a three-way Aegis chain (which is basically what DA+dual Aegis is), Shields Up+WY, and still be able to kill anyone outside of a spike.

Now, that's not the case. Now, you can pack a stupid amount of damage while still being able to slot all of that defense, because EVERYONE is packing more offense now. The "heavily defensive" builds right now are still packing a ton of offense relative to old Eurospike builds, yet the defensive tools (aside from Paragons) are mostly old, while the offensive tools are mostly new.

I tend to question complaints about Aegis, Shields Up, and Ward on a simple premise: Those things weren't exactly overpowered before, which usually points to something else breaking it. In this case, it's mainly GoLE+Leadership breaking the cost balancing, and the availability of offensive options reducing the opportunity cost of running them.

Vaga · Oct 09, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Only toning down offense would really work because it would still be the dominant strategy to run as much defense as possible and then only have enough offense in order to kill people. The key part is that it only takes glyph of sacrifice and meteor shower to kill all the opponents NPC's, and it only takes a few other skills to spike people at vod.

Bankai · Oct 09, 2007, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Only toning down offense would really work because it would still be the dominant strategy to run as much defense as possible and then only have enough offense in order to kill people. The key part is that it only takes glyph of sacrifice and meteor shower to kill all the opponents NPC's, and it only takes a few other skills to spike people at vod.

It wouldn't work, because with the reduced VoD-time, people will just turtle till VoD and then gay their way to victory.

Takida · Oct 09, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

How can every1 be complaining about the defensive stuff only? Do you relize how easy you would die with this rediciliously overpowered damage aswell?
Alltho i agree with you, I would like HP back in the game, But as some guy said, Wouldnt be enough to keep up the pressure .. So maybe i dunno. Maybe heal party 1 secon cast? it cost 15 energy.. + only like 60 health as most on ele, And i dunno.. i would like nerf on dmg lol. Everything is so much pressure theese days, but what do i know...

Bankai · Oct 09, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

Alltho i agree with you, I would like HP back in the game, But as some guy said, Wouldnt be enough to keep up the pressure .. So maybe i dunno. Maybe heal party 1 secon cast? it cost 15 energy.. + only like 60 health as most on ele, And i dunno.. i would like nerf on dmg lol. Everything is so much pressure theese days, but what do i know...

The problem isn't how good HP is, but that it's impossible to make a bar with Eprod+HP that's also able to fend off attackers, keep NPCs alive and run flags.

Byron · Oct 09, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

If LoD is touched at all in the update, imo, flaggers will be almost exclusively monks. If glyph is also nerfed, things will get hairy.

Riotgear · Oct 09, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Okay, would it work if VoD wasn't broken then? :P

Floski · Oct 09, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Someone told me this once, and I think it might help, but... energy doesn't always need to be done in multiples of 5. Try 7 or something for God's sake.